Re: Creation vs. Evolution

I was at Toledo campus yesterday for the 12:30 p.m. service. I was a visitor for the first time at that church. I very much enjoyed your opening presentation and the service in a whole. I loved your comment on the faith of an evolutionist. You made it so simple to understand, that it would take a far larger amount of faith to not believe we were created by God then to believe that we were the creation of a loving and all powerful God.

I also was absolutely amazed by your music and was wondering how I would be able obtain some of your music. I believe that it is very important for Christian's and our society to have music filled with as much beauty and the true message and Word of God.

If you could please respond on obtaining some more of your music, please due so at your earliest convenience.

Sincerely,
Jeff Duncil

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Kyle:
In reading your commentary are you claiming that in order to worship God or Jesus Christ we have to believe the words of the Bible exactly as they now appear knowing full well that the various Books of the Old Testament were compiled by the Hebrews up to a thousand years before Christ and were based on verbal stories and legends obviously modified and expanded depending on who is telling the Story. Examples: in Genesis the creation of Man and Woman and later in the same Genesis the creation of Eve from Adam's rib. The two different versions of Noah and his Ark and many others. The Bible though inspired by God has been subject to numerous interpretations by Man often for his own selfish ends, such as the eternal virginity of Mary by the Catholic Church even though The Gospels tell us of the Brothers and Sisters of Jesus. The Priests will call them stepbrothers or sisters or Cousins etc.
I do not see how it is possible to believe the Bible in the literal sense when it has been exposed to Man who has often shaped it to fulfill his own particular beliefs and desires.
This is also true in the New Testament, The Christian Bible, if you look at the recent Biblical research about by whom and when the Four main Gospels were written and for what audience.
What I am trying to say I do not see how a normal rational Human Being who was given by God the ability to think and reason is compelled to believe the Hebrew and the Christian Bibles literally, when they are obviously a Product of Man even though inspired by God.
I truly believe that I can still be a Believer in The Power of God and still accept science be it Cosmology, Astronomy, Archeology , Biology or even Evolution

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Hey Jeff! The only thing we have availabe at the moment is our 'First Light' CD in the bookstore, though we're gearing up to record more very soon!
Tony - The Bible is in fact the Word of God, perfect and true...inspired and infallible. You don't have to believe this if you don't want to. The Holy Bible is not a product of man, though a few other versions have added non canonical books. You can certainly not take anything in the Bible literally and still believe in the power of God, but if it's not the perfect word of God, how then will it continue to transform your life and guide you in how to live?
We disagree here greatly, but I thank you for posting...I mean that:)

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Isn't it possible to not be 100% sure in its 100% literal meaning and still believe that it's prinicples are 100% right? I definitely feel it transforming my life and guiding me but I'm not 100% sure on a literal one-week creation. For my own journey I don't feel it matters too much, I just wish I had answers for my elementary-aged kids. Mine just asked me last week how we can have the fossils of cavemen that appear ape-like but still have Adam & Eve as they appear in the bible. I promised her I'd find the answer, any help would be much appreciated...Thanks!!

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Yes, Christy...your question is defferent. You often have to look at the allegory, context and original text to interperate some of the scripture. I have no desire to debate anyone here on a 6 day creation...there are Christians who believe in theistic evolution...what I am saying is that God most certainly COULD have created (which I believe) all we see in 6 days, and since His word says that...I believe it. I don't make it a focal point of my daily walk, so I understand what you mean when you say it doesn't really matter to you. Traditional cavemen (Geico) as we like to think of them now, didn't quite fit the bill of ape-men. Whatever appears ape-like is either an ape or a human, not a transitional mix. Adam was the first man and he was undoubtably one good looking dude:)

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Kyle:
Thank you for your reply to my entry and if you do not want to debate this issue, I would assume this missive will not appear on your blog. But if you are honest with yourself and consider all the facts how can you say that the Bible is not the work of Man? Man decided what books appeared in the Christian Bible, not God. What about the Gospel of Mary or the Gospel of Thomas, possibly the Q document, a document many biblical scholars believe was used by Matthew and Luke along with the Gospel of Mark when they wrote the Gospels attributed to them. These aforementioned Gospels and many others were not included in the New Testament which did not reach its final form until almost the Fourth Century AD. The Priests (who are men) not God made the choice as to what Gospels to include. Further most of the Gospels were written in Greek although a few might have been in Araimic the language of Jesus and therefore had to be interpreted and translated by the early Priests who certainly had the opportunity and probably the inclination to put their own meanings to their translations. Remember there was not a printing press until about 1500 AD, so Bibles were individual documents not the mass produced books of Today.
I don't understand how you can take the Bible literally word for word when it is indeed shaped by Man.
I am not trying to be argumentative but I can't understand why you believe that the Bible is literally true when you examine it and see all the contradictions which are the responsibility of different Men's Self interest and prejudices. The Commandments and many of the other principles in the Bible are infallible and are certainly those of God. The Bible is obviously the Greatest Book ever written. Many of the Principles are God's but the Words are Man's and full of his self interests and prejudices.
Are you saying that since the Bible is to be believed literally, we should not believe in Science such as the Unjverse being about fifteen billion years old or the age of the Earth about 4 to 5 billion years old or the death of the dinosaurs about 60 million years ago. How long ago was the Earth created and if the dinosaurs coexisted with Adam and Eve what happened to them?
I am not trying to give you a hard time, but I just can't understand your refusal to face reality and thank God for his great gift of a brain that separates you from the other creatures of this planet. I really do think you can believe in science and yet appreciate God for the Creation and Wonders of the Universe.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Tony, I will post this one and let my readers reply. If you refuse to believe what I say and I refuse to believe what you say, we will settle on that. I think it's quite fair I give you the opportunity to speak your mind on this blog, I wish to do the same with the readers, you have heard my thoughts.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Tony, you obviously have a belief in God but definitely have a world view and put your faith in world view "facts" which are definitely reported, theorized, and hypothesized by men. I accept the Bible as God-Breathed, His word, His orchestration of all that was included in it to be shared with us for His purpose. I believe it is literally true because of my Faith. Why is it that you can believe the science that states the Earth is 4-5 billion years old and that dinosaurs lived 60 million years ago when these "facts" come from men who hypothesize and research at times to further themselves, their cause and personal beliefs, and their own agendas. There are just as many contradictions in what is reported scientifically and promoted as "fact". Perhaps you have not investigated these contradictions. Given the choice, I will put my faith in the fact and knowledge that the Bible is corrrect, is God-breathed and that scientific theories are just that, theories.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

I don't hate the truth. It's facts I'm not a fan of.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Tony I've been reading your replies and I find them interesting. It seems that you are separating God from the natural state of the world. You're are right about men putting together the various books of the Bible, you're right about men writing the bible... but why is it so hard to believe that God could have directed these actions. The natural state of the universal is not unique to the supernatural state of God.
God and science work in harmony together. God has established universal physical laws but is above these laws. Probability says that all the prophecies in the Bible could never come true...Its like playing Powerball and winning for a month straight on random numbers...impossible. But God's omnipotence is above all physical laws because that's what makes Him God. So if we look at the Bible as a mere book yeah its full of the improbable, but God's direction makes it fully possible right from the 6 days of creation to the last character in Revelation.

Tony science by definition has to be observed and any scientist that comes up with more than a theory of the earth's origins cannot be using the scientific method in the way it was intended to be used. 4.5 billion years is based on a flawed Radio-carbon dating system that assumed constant atmospheric and geological environments.

Kyle had a good point by talking about the "world view" of certain men or scientists. By definition many scientists are biased by wanting to eliminate all supernatural from the natural. After years of research many of these scientists have come to realize that there is something much larger than "SCIENCE"

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Brad thank you for your thoughtful epistle. In order for me to really address it, I would appreciate some Peer Reviewed documentation regarding your statement that the age of the Earth is based on "flawed Radio-carbon dating system that assumed constant atmospheric and geological environments."
If the Earth is not 4.5 billion years old as I think you are claiming, then about how old is it and how was that determined either by the "scientific method" or by another means. Again thanks for your post and I appreciate the opportunity to perhaps see another side to my quandary.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

This is the a most fascinating blog to follow. Did God create the earth and all within it in the same 6 days (144 hours) we count today or were his days longer? Maybe they were actually shorter? Is the Bible to be taken literally or is much of it meant to share God's ideas with us in a format all men (educated and uneducated) can understand? Could it be that the Bible is written to teach us in a fashion much like the parables that Jesus so often used? None of us really know!
I believe that, given our inability to fully wrap our minds around the greatness of God, we are automatically dismissed from being able to declare either position a 'sure thing'. One day though, we will all be given the opportunity to understand all of this. (Maybe even the way we process information will be different in that time, so how we understand then may be nothing like how our 'little minds' understand in this world).
So, go ahead and keep wondering about these things, but please never lose sight of the one 'sure thing'...Jesus lived, died and arose...He changed the world then (think about the beliefs and traditions of people back then and how he shook their world) and continues to do so each and every day. Now...continue the discussion...

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Hi Christy,
I, like you, have young kids that sometimes demand answers. I've looked into the issue of the "ape-like" faces of ancient men. One theory I've heard is that the skull slightly ages as the person ages to an age of someone who lived at the time the Bible was written. Remember, being centuries old was not uncommon. Also, there is room for error on the part of scientists with how they reconstruct the skull. Check out this page -
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v17/i1/neanderthal.asp
Hope that was helpful! I'm going to say a quick prayer for you, and the next round of questions!
-Tallie

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Tony,

I can't give you any peer reviewed papers on the errors of radioactive dating over the net. I can point you to some sites, however but I'm sure you might find them biased. I guess I could parallel this with the whole Global Warming debate. It is really hard to come up with a theory that unites multiple variables. Scientists look at the data for a very small set of years make a theory, and now we have ex-Presidents touring the country warning us to drive Hybrids. The problem is that these are weak theories at best. There are so many variables involved such as the sun's intensity, decaying matter, and even if CO2 leads warming or vice versa. We cannot assume our world was the same even 5,000 years ago in terms of the physical environment.
Scientists have never observed how rock is formed over a great length of time, there are also too many variables that are unaccounted for. Our earth is a dynamic planet without cycles varying back and forth. I'll give you an example, some scientists believe the atmospheric pressure has varied throughout history. This would cause different Carbon-14 uptake into organisms.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

2 Peter 3-3 thru 3-9. God created it all. End of story from my simple mind. We cannot fathom Gods time frame. Verse 8. With the Lord a day is like a thousand years and a thousand years is but a day. His 6 days just might have been a whole lot longer than our 6 days? How can we be true Christians and have so little faith in the one who did it all for ME!!!!! Maybe still too many "Christian" scoffers in the world and church? Verse 3. I am otta here to go read my Bible with my simple mind and let God prick my heart as he does daily about sin in MY life. I have been a Christian 45 years and "Christians" lack of faith in GOD never ceases to amaze me. My Bible says God made it so simple to confound the wise and as I read this blog it convinces me all the more he sure did know what he was talking about. What a surprise! I am sure glad he gave me a simple mind!! What a LORD!!!!

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Hi Tallie ~ Thanks so much for your insight, I will certainly dive into that website, it looks like there's a lot of good stuff on there. To BobG and others who think this isn't something to get consumed by, let me remind us all that the bible instructs us to be prepared to defend our faith, and in a world schooled by evolution being dominant we need to be armed with as much knowledge as possible to debunk what our society has been brainwashed into thinking is fact. People who have been taught the flawed theory of evolution have unwittingly been given "evidence" to dismiss the bible and everything in it.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

RAW: Thank you very much for the thoughtful, open minded entry; many of your statements regarding our complete ignorance of the Greatness and the Goodness of God, and his plans for us, something we will all learn singularly one day. I am in total agreement.

Christy: Your reply to Bob G. infers that we who believe in evolution and do not take the Bible literally word for word are dismissing the Bible and everything in it could not be further from the truth. St. Augustine of Hippo 354 A.D. thru 430 A. D., a venerated figure in Early Christianity; to the present day Catholics, he is considered a Saint (Google him) wrote:

" It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.

– The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 1:19–20, Chapt. 19 [AD 408]

and

With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation.

– ibid, 2:9

Last summer Pope Benedict XVI addressed the compability of Faith and Evolution and he stated: from MSNBC News Services dated July 25, 2007.

The pontiff, speaking as he was concluding his holiday in northern Italy, also said that while there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory could not exclude a role by God.

“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”
He said evolution did not answer all the questions: “Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, ‘Where does everything come from?’”

Therefore Christy your premise that I who do not believe in the literal reading of Genesis because of the overwhelming evidence garnered from the work of a multitude of impartial scientists over the past centuries and consequently I also surmise that there is "much scientific proof" for evolution stand in very good company.

I are not trying to dismiss the Bible and everything in it, I am creating for me a real God not just a mystical figure that I am supposed to worship without a rational thought in my head.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Tony: After reading your last essay I must say I was impressed by your eloquence and interpertation of the scriptures from a very Catholic perspective and St. Augustine the Hippo. Therein I think lies the problem. God made it so simple to confound and confuse the wise which you certainly seem to be from the world's view. God must have a great sense of humor and look down on us and just laugh. You may want to check out Kyle's next commentary on Oprah. I hope this is not offensive to you but since I am not known as a very politically correct person, you seem to remind me a lot of a male Oprah. Good luck with that!!

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

My word Tony...There is no need to make something overly complex! Liberal Theology such as this will mean that you're willing to compromise other doctrine. Anglican Archbishop Rowan Williams of Canterbury is now willing to accept Sharia Law... Where does it stop? Just keep inching over soon one church.

This blog does not have enough characters to express my problems with over-intellectual liberal theology. Tony, I'm not the smartest guy in the world by any means, but I have done my homework and enjoy talking "intellectual" at different times.
Why can't some people accept the simple? Does everything have to be so complex? Love fails when we over-analyze it, churn it and assign some sort of binary code to it; it works when its simple. Sometimes i believe that some people just can't call something the color "blue". That's too simple so they create words like periwinkle, mystic river, and so on.

My point is that if you have some deep desire to over-intellectualize the book of Genesis, you might just have a head knowledge of God without the heart. True faith accepts it. Now if you want to go scientific on origins we could quote things back and forth all day. I guess my main point is why do you feel the need to defend evolution? What is it going to get you in the end?

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

BobG: I don't take offense, I just wish I had Oprah's eloquence. Perhaps you can make it simple for me. Would you give me your thoughtful reply to the following questions:

1. Do you completely discount what St. Augustine of Hippo and Pope Benedict XVI said and Why? since St. Augustine certainly had many more credentials than any of us and come to think of it so does the Pope.

2. In Genesis: What happened to the Male and Female that were simultaneously created in God's image before he created Adam from dust, then Then he created The Garden of Eden and then later because Adam could not find a helper he caused Adam to sleep and from Adam's rib made Eve. Where did the original Man and woman go?

3. In Genesis since all the animals of the earth existed at that time, lions, tigers, bears,elephants, hippos, giraffes, kangaroos, dinosaurs(many varieties if you believe the fossils), squirrels, rabbits etc. etc. etc.which constituted every animal that has ever lived on the earth and either 2 or 7 of each depending on whether they were unclean or clean and all the food they ate ever fit on the Ark? And then when the flood was over what happened to them? Where are the multiple varieties of dinosaurs today? And since the Ark ended up on Ar'arat which is in Turkey, how did the penguins get to Antartica, the buffalo to North America the kangaroos to Australia etc.?

BobG. I could go on and on pointing out literary flaws in the Bible stories and if you were honest with yourself so could you. But as I have said in my previous posts the Bible is the Greatest Book ever written, but it was written, interpreted and modified by Man after being inspired by God. I say this because if God did all the writing, none of these flaws would exist, because it could be nothing but perfect.

BobG: Again I take no offense to your post, but I would appreciate a reply to mine. When I attend CedarCreek services I wish to follow Kyle's advice at the beginning of the posts on this subject. There is "no need to check your brains in at the door of the church."

I humbly await your reply

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Tony: I certainly have no doubt that you are a very educated/learned man by the worlds standards and very steeped in the traditions of the Catholic Church. I married into a very traditional and strong Catholic family and have seen the church at work ever since. I once got asked to leave a Priest's office at a Catholic retreat I attended with some Catholic friends after a discussion because I wanted to discuss the Bible but he only wanted to discuss the Teachings of the Church. He also did not accept a literal interpretation of the Scriptures. The family are all still working thru the church to earn their salvation thru good works, The Sacraments, Mass, Confession to a Mortal Priest etc, etc. My debt has been paid in full on the Cross when Jesus cried out "IT IS FINISHED" plus NOTHING. JOHN 19-30. Since you believe that to accept the Bible and a literal interpretation of the Word in all areas of scriptures (which is believed and taught at Cedar Creek you would have to "check your brains in at the door" ie (have a pea for a brain) it would be foolish of me to try to convince you of anything in the Bible. Years ago I learned from 2 Tomothy 2-23 not to get sucked into these stupid and foolish arguments since they produce nothing for either of us. I guess my question is. Why would you even attend services at Cedar Creek knowing what they believe and preach unless God was working on your spiritual conscience that might not be getting fed enough scripture at your local Catholic Church? I do not or would not even think to also attend a Catholic Church due to the teachings of the Church. About St. Augustine and the Pope I do disregard their teachings as those of mere men just like me. By the way I also disregard Kyle or Lee Powell's opinions if the are opposite from the scriptures. Apart from the scripture all is foolishness in my simple world. I believe that Jesus is the Rock not Peter or the Pope or Mary. I also believe that God inspired and guided men to write the scriptures and that he protects the inerrancy of his word thru his spirit (how simple and foolish of me). God knows that the message of the cross and his Word is foolishness to those who are perishing and he has chosen the foolish things and simple minded people of the world to shame and confuse the wise (1 Cor 1 starting vr 18). Lastly Tony you said you humbly wait a reply. I seriously doubt that anything in your life speaks of humility or maybe you would humble yourself before God and accept his Word literally without adding or taking away from it. Thanks for the thoughts Tony and good luck working things out with the God of your world. Rest assured that my little world is just fine. My debt is already PAID IN FULL. Have a good life my friend and keep coming to the Creek (but don't look for me at your Catholic Church anytime soon) and my prayer will be that someday thru the Creek you will find your way thru the Bible to the foot of the Cross. This is the end of my blogging with you on the subject since this becomes a fruitless argument for both of us. Have a great life my friend!!

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

To My Blogging Friends: In regards to BobG; I'm not sure if you are commending me, making fun of me for thinking or blessing me, but obviously you or no one is willing to discuss facts with me. None of you bloggers will discuss the possibility that there are contradictions in the Bible or that science is valid only if it doesn't conflict with the ancient lore of the Old Testament or the fact that countless scientists have proved beyond a reasonable doubt that the Earth and the Universe are billions of years old. You just quote what you feel is the appropriate passage from the Bible and say no more.

Based on my own study,I feel that some of the conclusions espoused by Lee in his last sermon of 4-13-2008 are incorrect, but I now realize none of you would pay my words any heed. I enjoyed much of his sermon, but disagreed with some of the conclusions. Not of the Greatness of the Book but the failure to accept it was written by Man and therefore can be subject to Man's imperfections.

Based on my experience with this blog, I will fade from sight and probably stay around the Creek as an anonymous member who admires the programs, the format and the faith of its members but OBVIOUSLY I must remember to check my worldly brain at the door.

P.S. BobG I am not a Catholic and you would realize that if you read my earlier remark concerning the Catholic Churches' belief in the Eternal Virginity of Mary.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Tony-I had no intention of blogging one more time but I have to respond to yours. I want you to know I truly had no intention of making fun or you or blessing you (I surely do not have that power nor does any earthly being), priest or pastor at Cedar Creek. As I stated to you apart from the scriptures all is foolishness in my world. In your world anything in the Bible apart from fact is foolishness, therefore, we can't agree on anything from the Bible because we are in two different worlds. Your facts come from man and my facts come from the Bible as the Word Of God. Thats the long and short of our worlds Tony. You need to go to the Creation Museum in Cincinnati and argue these facts with the world renowned scientists that also believe in the scriptures as proving the origin of life. I am not qualified to argue "your facts" nor do I care about them since I live only by Gods Word. Tony when I lay my head down for my last breath I am only taking with me a PROMISE from Gods Word as my reason for going to Heaven. NOTHING ELSE WILL BE IN MY CASKET WITH ME. I will not take facts from man to present to God as for my ticket to heaven only the PROMISE OF ENTRY THRU TOTAL FAITH IN HIS SON JESUS AND HIS WORD-NOTHING MORE OR NOTHING LESS. PLEASE keep attending the Creek my friend as God seems to be stirring in your soul and like I said earlier my prayer is you will find yourself at the foot of the Cross with all of your facts. Present those facts to God in your own prayers and ask him to show you the answers as you read and study the Bible. It may not happen overnight but I know he is working in you. It may not mean anthing to you but you are on my daily prayer (Not Blessing List) list my friend and I know God can use you for great things in his Kingdom as your eyes are opened and your heart softened to his Word. You truly seem like a great guy and I just want you to know I am too fading from this blog but you will not fade from my daily prayer list Tony. Continue to grow in Christ my friend!!!!

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

I think that there has been a great deal of misinformation surrounding the word "fact" in this thread. Evryone has the same facts! By definition the facts must be common to everyone or they would not be facts. What is being substituted in many of these posts is "inference" or "interpretation."

Facts do not speak for themselves; they must be interpreted!!!!!!!

I was formally trained as an evolutionary scientist and then taught the same in the public schools for many years. One thing I was not taught was the many assumptions that made up my evolutionary worldview. Even though I minored in chemistry I was never taught the assumptions of the dating methods. Rather, I took them as "facts" since the top scientists all agreed they were "true". Just because the majority agrees does not make an interpretation true--it is still an interpretation. Ultimately I came to realize that everything we do is colored by our worldview (the lenses we look at the world through--if you will).
How do we know that anything we believe is true? we must accept certain presuppositions--the ultimate truths--to start from. Those who believe that evolution is the cause of life on earth must believe in a universe that is billions of years old as a fundamental starting point that "must be true" for their worldview to be true. It is much more rational to start from the Bible's description of the universe--an eyewitness account--than to arbitrarily decide that man can find the absolute truth by his own reasoning (a vicious circle in logical terms).

If the God of the Bible does not exist, why do we have an orderly universe? Why do we have laws of logic?

Tony--Not to be rude, but the 3 questions you ask above have been dealt with by many scholars and are quite simple to explain. Your claims about all of the animals that boarded the Ark are inaccurate. Reading the text of Genesis we find that only representatives of the "kinds" (Hebrew-min) were taken, not each of the species we have today (or could interpret to have been alive then). Looking to Genesis 1 we have an idea of what the "kinds" are--those things that reproduce more of the same (ie, a cat kind, a dog kind, a horse kind, etc) but with great variety as evident in the fossil record (as you correctly pointed out). Fossil skeletons of a great dane and a toy poodle would, doubtless, be classified as distinct species were they only known form their fossils. Today we know that they are of the same species as they can reproduce fertile offspring (a test we can't perform on fossils). I would suggest that the ceratopsian dinosaurs miht have all been of the same kind and able to interbreed. Noah need only take a pair to represent the kind aboard the Ark. The same holds true for the remaining kinds.

I would encourage you to search for the explanations on one of a number of sites--www.answersingenesis.org has valid answers to each of your questions and www.carm.org has more. How can we call it the greatest book ever written if it has so many flaws? Your logic is self-refuting. Your claim that there are literary flaws is not supported by any sort of textual criticism or actual detailed/rsearched examples. I used to make similar claims when I was a college student, but then I actually read the Bible and sincerely (with as little intentional bias as one can possess) researched the authenticity of the writings. Have you done as much? If not, then you are placing your trust in the opinions and ideas of men--the same charge you level against Bible-believers.
Sola Dei Gloria

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Well said Roger.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Roger:

It was my intention to fade into anonymity on this blog, but if you "trained as an evolutionary scientist" are willing to address some of my questions without just quoting a verse of the scripture as a reply, I would be willing to return.

How about my question regarding the different species of animals scattered over the globe. How did they get there from Ar'arat and prosper all in the past few thousand years?

Regarding literary flaws of the Bible: How do you explain the two versions in Genesis of the creation of the earth and the creation of man, the two versions are not consistent. Explain to me how they are not contradictory.

Roger: I have researched how and when the Bible was written and under what circumstances and this is why I hold onto my present beliefs.

If you have some questions for me: Fire Away!

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Tony,
Thank you for the reply. I refuse to abandon my biblical beliefs in an argument. To do so is to admit up front that the Bible is irrelevant and my argument becomes self-refuting. I trust the Bible as the source of truth revealed by God. Since I trust it , I would be inconsistent in my thinking if I agreed to leave it out of the arguments I put forward. Likewise, you would not accept my invitation to set something you trusted aside, especially if you believed it was the source of ultimate truth.

I point out that my training is in evolutionary science to lend credibility (for what it is worth) to my ideas. I have lived on both sides of the line, so please take my comments for what you will.

If there are errors in the Bible then only an omniscient being could determine which statements in the Bible are true or false as that being could compare those statements to his understanding of truth--the only perfect standard. Since the Bible claims to be the inspired Word of God, and God cannot lie, then the Bible is either true or false--it cannot be both. Since no human is omniscient, no human could determine which parts of the Bible are true or false without acting in an arbitrary way. Since acting in an arbitrary way is irrational, anyone who picks and chooses what they want to believe out of the Bible is being irrational (I use that term in a technical sense, not saying that those who disagree with me belong in an asylum). I realized that this was the way I had been treating the bible about 5 years ago.

I don't wish to fire away questions (especially since you have addressed only part of my original post) and I don't wish to retype the answers to questions that my colleagues have dealt with at length. The answers and arguments have been presented--you must accept or reject them.
On the alleged Genesis contradiction:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v18/i4/genesis.asp
http://www.tektonics.org/jedp/creationtwo.html

On the animals and the Ark:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/how-did-animals-spread
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/what-happened-to-the-dinosaurs

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Roger:
I bet no other scientist in the world except those you referred me to at AnsweringGenesis.org realizes that in the past 3500 years,the descendants of Noah and his Ark have repopulated the all the continents of the world, from the Ark touched down in the mountains of Turkey at Ar'arat,and have evolved into all the various races of this Earth. That all the animals including dinosaurs,buffalo, penguins etc have all floated on logs or walked on land bridges that are non existent today to thelcations they are found at today. That all the mountain ranges of the Earth have become higher,that there has been rampant continental drift, and that we have had an ice age all in the past 3500 years. I bet the Egyptians, the Greeks and the Romans didn't even know these facts since their Empires were historically dominant during this period of time and there is no record of it in their literature.
Obviously in reading all this new material that I have never heard other scientists of this Earth espouse before and I have been interested in science my whole reading life, I am just "blown away" and need some additional time to do further research on the conclusions reached by your scientists of AnsweringGenesis.com.So I will do further research and get back to you this weekend.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Hey Tony,
Go to itunes and look up Ken Ham-SermonAudio.com. There are 7 messages there for you to listen to for free. (Ken Ham) is the founder of the creation museum and these message's cover alot of ground. Or you can go to http://www.answersingenesis.org/video/ondemand/#2006 and watch videos.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Roger:

I said I would get back to you this weekend. Please forgive my earlier entry of several days ago; it is very poorly written because of its typos etc. But this last week has been very busy and stressful for me and I did not have the time to even superficially edit same.

In reading your last post, you take me to task for not pointing out some of the many mistakes and contradictions of the Bible. But understand, I am not demeaning the spirit of the Book, I am only demonstrating, it‘s contents are Man’s words and therefore subject to the author’s or editor’s prejudices, beliefs and knowledge at the time of publication. God would not give us a brain and yet expect us to accept whatever is in the Bible if all our senses and knowledge indicate the complete opposite. Such as:

Leviticus 11:20-23 states that crickets, locusts, grasshoppers and some other creeping, flying insects have four legs. We all know they have six. Leviticus also says a hare chews a cud (Leviticus 11:6). Cows do, but rabbits don’t.

Deuteronomy 14:18 calls the bat a bird; A bat is a mammal.

Matthew 4:8 states that the Devil takes Jesus up an extremely high mountain and shows him all the Kingdoms of the world. We know that is impossible because the Earth is round and therefore this writing is based on the ancient belief, that the earth is flat. The Devil could certainly show Jesus all the Kingdoms of the world without the necessity of climbing an extremely high mountain. Now here are some contradictions:

In considering how long the Earth will exist: Ecclesiastes 1:4 states: “One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.” But then in 2 Peter 3:10 It is said: “The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” The Bible says both: Which verse is correct?

Genesis 17:10 states: “This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.” 1 Corinthians 7:19 states: “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.” Which verse should men rely on today?. Finally:

Numbers 31:15-18 these passages from the Bible, if literally true would seriously erode my faith in the innate goodness of God. In this tale, Moses at the urging of God has sent his army to destroy the Midianites. Upon their return he finds his men have slain the Midianite Kings , the adult males and captured the women and children. Yet Moses is angry with the officers of his army.
“15And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? 16Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD. 17Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. 18But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”
I cannot believe these passages are literally correct. A God that would advocate the killing of innocent women and children and the saving young virgins for the use and pleasure of soldiers of Moses is not the God, I have been aware of for all my life. Much of my earlier study concerned the New Testament and to find this saga confirms my belief that certain portions of the Bible especially in the Old Testament are the product of ancient Man’s ignorance and prejudice.

Roger this document is long enough for this post and therefore I will stop here and if I get some response to this missive, I will take on the incredible references that I have been provided. I do have some questions based on your last post. But: Your last entry reads:

“Those who believe that evolution is the cause of life on earth must believe in a universe that is billions of years old as a fundamental starting point that "must be true" for their worldview to be true. It is much more rational to start from the Bible's description of the universe--an eyewitness account--than to arbitrarily decide that man can find the absolute truth by his own reasoning (a vicious circle in logical terms).
If the God of the Bible does not exist, why do we have an orderly universe? Why do we have laws of logic?).” I would like some clarification. Such as:

Why can’t we believe the universe is billions of years old, many other Christians do? Who is the eyewitness you speak of? Why does the Bible have to be literally correct to have an orderly universe? Isn’t science based on laws of Logic? Why did you suddenly choose not to believe the well documented rate of decay of certain elements used for dating the age of the Earth and it’s life forms, but yet refer me to answeringgenesis.com for their unique scientific explanations?
I await your reaction, if any.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Tony,
I have been working on a new blog site this week...this one is going to disappear shortly...this link will soon go to my own separate site. Sorry I have not responded due to this change. One thing is clear on all of your posts. You cannot believe some things in the Bible are true, as they are written. You even say this yourself in your last post. In what was my original entry (which seems like miles up this page) I stated that you cannot pick and choose what you want to believe out of scripture, what seems logical and fits in your preference box. You are doing just this. You can believe whatever you want to, a beautiful result of free will:) Blogs are great for everyone who posts because everyone has the same thousands of viewers that I do, no matter what the answer! That's why I love it and post most entries that come in, agreeing or disagreeing with me. In my opinion, blogs don't change many people's minds...they merely serve as a platform to hear one's side of the argument, or thought. We could travel for miles on this page between all of us, and nothing more would come of it...if both sides are set in what they believe. You will not believe certain portions of scripture because you won't let yourself. So be it. I have no idea if Roger will respond again, but he certainly doesn't need to, as he has stated all you need in his last few posts. You sure don't have to believe anything you don't want to. I'm so happy your passionate about all of this, I mean that. I love to see people fired up when it comes to God. We're just not going to see eye to eye here and it's not going to be solved on a blog, that's for sure. I hope you continue hanging out at the Creek, the truths of scripture find ways to reveal themselves to us...all of us.

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

Kyle:

How do you answer what is right according to the scripture, when there are two conflicting stories. i.e. Whether God requires a male to be circumcised. If a parishioner came to you and was aware of the contradiction, what would you tell her to do with her newborn baby.

I also understand how uncomfortable it is for you to have my beliefs on your blog since they are in many ways the antithesis of the Creek's beliefs in the infallibility of the Bible. Even though, I have attended almost every week for over a year, and am very impressed by the Creek's sincere attempts to improve people's lives through believing in something bigger and more important than us all, I did not realize the Creek's doctrine until I saw the video you shot at the Genesis museum and realized based on a lifetime of being curious and trying to learn about anything that interests me, which is almost everything, I could not accept what you were saying. You are right! no matter what I write in this blog, I am not going to change anyone's mind and no one is going to change mine. As they say, "Preaching to the Choir" I will check to see if anyone answers me.

Kyle: Thanks for the Forum

Re: Creation vs. Evolution

When I saw Kyle at the creation museum on that video at Church, my mouth dropped open. My wife looked at me with amazement also. I don't know if it was originally in Kyle's plans to attend the museum, or if it was something somebody might have posted on one of his earlier blogs that persuaded him to go. Either way, it doesn't really matter. What does matter is that he agrees with what I believe, The Truth of God's infallible Word! All of it! Preaching of the Word is all anybody should want from those that are leading us. We shouldn't want anything less or anything more. Just the Word of God. It's His Word that changes men's hearts! Not what we (men) have to say. The question is......Do you have a teachable spirit? Or are you always going......yea but, what about? How come? Let God's Word change you. It's the only thing that's Truly True Truth. 100% All of it!