Re: Grace

I had to work in downtown Columbus today and normally I get lunch and just eat it while I work. But I had an unusual inclination to walk over to the mall and look for something spiritual to read over lunch, so I did. I had no idea what I was looking for, but at the bookstore I landed on this one - "Blue Like Jazz" by Donald Miller. I've only read a couple of chapters, but it is so what I needed to be reading about, and so relevant to the subject of grace, at least what I have read so far. Let me share this conversation the author had with his friend about the genocide that was taking place in Africa at the time of the writing: ------------------------- "I knew that was taking place over there," Tony said. "But I didn't know it was that bad". "It's terrible," I told him. "Two and a half million people, dead. In one village they interviewed about fifty or so women. All of them had been raped, most of them numerous times." Tony shook his head and said "That is amazing. It is so difficult to even process how things like that can happen." I replied, "I know. I can't even get my mind around it. I keep wondering how people could do things like that." Tony asked me, "Do you think you could do something like that, Don?" Tony looked at me pretty seriously. I honestly couldn't believe he was asking the question. "What are you talking about?" I asked. Tony replied "Are you capable of murder or rape or any of the other stuff that is taking place over there ?" "No." I replied. "So you are not capable of any of those things?" Tony asked again. "No, I couldn't," I told him. "What are you getting at?" Tony said "I just want to know what makes those guys over there any different from you and me. They are human. We are human. Why are we any better than them, you know?" Tony had me on this one. If I answered his question by saying yes, I could commit all those atrocities, that would make me evil, but if I answered no, it would suggest I believed I am better evolved than some of the men in the Congo. And then I would have some explaining to do. (the author is African-American) "You believe we are capable of those things, don't you, Tony?" Tony replied "I think so, Don. I don't know how else to answer the question." I said "What you are really saying is that we have a sin nature, like the fundamentalist Christians say." Tony replied "Pretty much, Don. It just explains a lot, you know." "Actually," I told him reluctantly, "I have always agreed with the idea that we have a sin nature. I dont think it looks exactly like the fundamentalists say it does, 'cause I know so many people who do great things, but I do buy the idea we are flawed, that there is something in us that is broken. I think it is easier to do bad things than good things. And there is something in that basic fact, some little clue to the meaning of the universe." "It's funny how little we think about it, isn't it?" Tony shook his head. "It really is everywhere, isn't it?" I said. By this we were talking about the flawed nature of our existance. -------------------------- Mr. Miller also quotes a C.S. Lewis poem that was extremely moving: ------------------------ All this is flashy rhetoric about loving you; I never had a selfless thought since I was born.; I am mercenary and self-seeking through and through; I want God, you, all friends, merely to serve my turn; Peace, reassurance, pleasure, are the goals I seek,; I cannot crawl one inch outside my proper skin; I talk of love - a scholar's parrot may talk Greek -; But self-imprisoned, always end where I begin. ---------------------------- Sorry for the long post and all apologies to the Mr. Miller for quoting his text. It seemed apropo to talk about grace in the context of our total need for it. We are all very, very messed up, not one any better than another.

Re: Grace

Wow. Speaking of being messed up, please redact my comment in the above text about Donald Miller's race. Donald Miller is NOT African-American. I have no idea why I projected this on him as I read him, not to imply that being African-American is any way negative. I won't go on about this, it's totally my bad and just another quirky and disturbing (sinful?) detail about myself to ponder on.

Re: Grace

I definetly agree that salvation isn't a reward for what good we do, just as Martin Luther said, we can get salvation from God by just faith alone. I have been a christian my whole life, so I never really had this point when the grace of God changed my life, but I can only imagine what my life without God's grace would be like. I love my family a whole lot, but I can't even begin to explain my love for Jesus Christ, he's my rock. And as much as I love him, I can't even fathom how much he must love me. And despite the fact that anyone can reject Christ's love, the greatest love you will ever get, Christ will still love us. That just blows my mind. I can't imagine how hurt I would feel if I loved someone with all my heart and they didn't love me back. That's one thing that's just so amazing about God's grace, no matter what, there will always be someone we can love and for sure they will love us back, that's Christ, and what is the saddest of all is that Christ loves people that don't love him back, the King of Kings, the Lord of Lords, the Father almighty, does not deserve rejection... that really makes me think. But I know that there are many people out there who do love Jesus Christ, and I'm one of them, and I'm certainly thankful for that.

Re: Grace

Kelly I think it is great that you have always had God as a part of your life. I myself grew up in a Christian home and would also say that God was always a part of my life. But there came a time in my life where that wasn't enough, it wasn't a matter of faith for me I believed but something was still missing. The summer of my 18th birthday I came to understand that God didn't just want me to believe but to embrace him. It hit me that I had never crossed that line of faith from believing to accepting him. John 1:12 says that if we believe and accept then we can be called a child of God. That was it, I needed to accept that God loves me so much that He died for me before I believed. Wow what freedom I found in not having to make myself believe, I asked God to forgive me of my sinful nature and become the Lord of my life. I gave my life to God and stopping trying to please God on my own effort. 1 Peter 2:24 says that Christ personally carries away our sins when we accepted his offer for forgiveness, and our relationship with God is then healed by the wounds of Christ. Jesus suffered and gave His life for each of us that is how much he loves us! Kelly I have to ask, have you crossed that line of faith from believing to accepting him? I think you are blessed to have had God as an influence on your life since childhood what a great heritage.

Re: Grace

Mike- I guess I did cross that line from believing to accepting. Actually, I recently have really felt much more drawn to God, and I personally have to thank pastors at Cedar Creek for that. They have made so many things clear to me, I feel a want that I never had before, I want to seve God, not just by praying and reading the Bible, I want to go on missions and get involved in the church, I know that God can use anyone, and I want Him to use me. I guess I got tired of just being an "uninvolved christian", what I mean to say is, I just want to get closer to God. I certainly am blessed to have always had Jesus Christ in my life, I see so many people that didn't grow up that way and I feel bad for them. I think I grew closer to Jesus because He's always there when I need Him. I'm only thirteen, but I've had a pretty rough life. My parents are divorced, my dad is an alcoholic, he's sober now, but only since I was eleven. As a kid I would get scared, my mom would be at work and my dad would be completely passed out, I was terrified, so I turned to God, that's what I was taught to do, I just didn't think I'd have to so soon, so early in my life. Jesus always comforted me, and that's one of the big things that just showed me Jesus definetly exsisted, like now I tell non-believers, "Of course Jesus is real! He's my best friend. When I need Him He was there, that's proof enough for me." So I have personally made it my goal to bring as many non-believers to Christ as I can. I was so blessed to have known Christ since I was old enough to know who God was. I don't think it's fair that not everybody knows who He is, so it's my job as a christian to let them know. And I also will tell any child that's a christian, keep believing, even if your parents walk away from God, that doesn't mean you have to too. That's one of the most valuable things I've learned, I watched people walk away from God, but I didn't, and that's why I'm at where I am today, a very strong Christian with a whole lot of faith, ready to spread the word of God. That's me, I'm Kelly, a child of God.

Re: Grace

I think the most amazing moments of recognition of the need of grace don't necessarily come at the time we're saved, but as we mature and continually discover our increasing need of it! Not that we didn't need it all along, we just become more and more aware of it.

In one of Paul's earlier letters, he told the Corinthian church that he was the "least of the Apostles" in terms of his status among the elite (1 Corinthians 15:9). Later in his life, he called himself the "very least of all saints" (Ephesians 3:8). His final estimation of himself late in was that when it came to garden variety "sinners," "...I (Paul) am foremost of all!" (1 Timothy 1:15).

Did Paul suffer from a poor self-esteem? Did he need some good therapy (I'm a therapist...I think in those terms by habit)? I think Paul more fully appreciated his need of grace the more he became aware of all that was in his heart, and how much was still influenced by the "flesh" (Romans 8), as he matured more and more in the "mind of Christ" (1 Corinthians 2: 16).

I sat with a group of men once in Philadelphia, many of whom were former substance addicts. When most told their stories, they spoke of lives enslaved to illicit drugs, promiscuous sex and rancid selfishness...which Christ had called them out of. Some of them praised Him for deliverance from aspects of that former lifestyle. I shared a perspective that was a little different. I grew up in a Christian family, lived "clean" all my life, had always been a church attender, and for all intents and purposes was a "fair haired boy" throughout most of my life. Christ was, however, all along confronting me about and delivering me from what I consider the most devestating and powerful addiction anyone could become enslaved to...arrogance! It's not the most "sexy" addiction to bring to a group to talk about, but truly it takes an amazingly deep work of the Spirit to show a man the devestation to the soul that arrogance/pride causes, which isn't as readily apparent as the nasty effects of drugs or alcohol.

I related that I thought the trauma in the soul that one goes through when God is turning over "fallow ground" was every bit as painful as that of confronting a physical addiction.

Believe it or not, I wasn't received very well! Many of these men were newer believers in Jesus, and for them the most significant issues in their lives that were being confronted at that time were their physical addictions. They simply couldn't fathom that, once physical addictions were surmounted with the help of Christ, anything else could pose much of an obstacle to growth. Shouldn't spiritual maturity make life easier, more fulfilling, and more and more "just a blast" every continuing day? Isn't that what a lot of young believers have been scammed with before the decision to become saved?

Regardless of what thoughts Paul had at the beginning of his spiritual journey, deepening maturity brought with it a deepening sense of how much further he had to go, a more penetrating longing for posessing that for which he was called, and a broadening understanding of how much the "unmeritted favor" of God was essentially necessary in liberating his soul from the worst cancer of all...selfishness and self-worship. The addiction to self is at the root of every form of sin and addiction. One ceases to be a worshipper of self, and becomes a worshipper of the true God, only when stunned into silence by the overwhelming necessity of God's intervention, His grace. Openness to this realization increasingly becomes natural only with maturity...something for which Paul was willing to pay any price and make any sacrifice.

The lesson with regard to "grace" for us is this: to more fully taste God's grace, we must grow and mature in order to more fully appreciate our weakness, and our need of grace. I'm growing increasingly willing to pay the price.